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The Biggest Library Yet 6

Radio interviews issue With Dave Fanning on RTE Ireland 80 Tapezine self-interview 80 Fast Forward tapezine, Australia 82 With Richard Skinner on Radio One 82 With Johnnie Walker on Radio One 84 Terry Christian 86 Brix on Radio One's Backchat, 88 Music View, US 88 La Stampa, Holland 90 With Mark Radcliffe on Radio Five, Hit the North 91 Peel and Radcliffe discuss The Fall 91 Personal Stereo: on Mark Goodier's Evening Session 92 Anti-Seminar: with Mark Goodier 92 BBC World Service 93 Collins and Maconie, One FM 94 >> TBLY 6: Radio Interviews pt 2 and Internet-only Issue 15.1 Published: July 1996 SOLD OUT

Yeah I can go on about what a load of shit the music biz is and all that. And how Melody Maker is becoming a threat to the proletariat. I sincerely believe that. My mother just told me that the person of the group that recorded Turning Japanese, [sings] Turning Japanese you know I'm turning Japanese, was a fucking lawyer. Can you believe that? Can you believe it!

So I'll stick to my band and just say The Fall have got a single coming out about June on a record label I'm not prepared to disclose [interrupted] How I Wrote Elastic Man which is about how the public kill off their heroes' creativity and City Hobgoblins which was originally entitled Case for the Jews, not that that's got anything to do with the song. Presently about to be released. Go into and ask why your local record dealer he's such a dick. City Hobgoblins is ... it's good. It's a paean to paranoia number 1097. We've got a new drummer on it called Paul Hanley who's Steve's brother, can't be here at the moment because he's got school. The rest can't be here at the moment because I wouldn't let them come here at the moment. Paul took over from Mike who left the band a while back for various reasons. In fact, there's a fanzine interview with him. [inaudible] They asked him about The Fall's relationships with drugs and he says: 'Let's get this straight. Drugs have killed and maimed thousand of people. And it's about time so-called working class heroes stood up and said something about it.' Well, Mike was always a good contrast to the band. I won't bring up the 18 million teddy-boy deaths caused by the landing craft invasion in 1983.

Let's just say The Fall are okay, a change is as good as a rest, we intend to do sporadic gigs around everywhere. Let's go back to Elastic Man about the public killing off their heroes' creativity. [Mark sounds like Jimmy Saville]

I was talking more about Jimmy Greaves, George Best. If you don't believe me, just ask them. [interrupted]

Biographical! Auto-biographical.

Yeah, The Fall are okay, we eat well. We're doing an LP soon, which will consist of some songs with good stories, and some melodies, voices instrument exercises. This LP will not end up in the rubbish bin or clog up the coffee table like those with their '73 revival LPs masquerading under various new wave trademarks. It will put a bit of intelligence back into the scene as usual. All the groups imitate us, but they always underrate us.

I don't think I should shut up about bands presently making a mint out of Fall rip-offs but they've got to live with them so... and I wouldn't like to be them.

I've just met this lad in here who's been made redundant. He was on Kid Jensen or something - they can't stand the kid - but this lad wasn't very impressed. I've been thinking about this a lot actually.

I mean, no way is he going to figure it out from the morass of stuff he's got to listen to. Very common nowadays, people are told, somehow, what bands are good. If a band that likes stars up a tree, like stars you know, that's common sense, but The Fall... the main idea of The Fall is to leave a mark, and we have done and we'll carry on doing.

Instead of asking why are The Fall in it, people should ask why are the other bands in it.

If you put it on a world situation basis it's like the Russians are persecuted, well the Russians aren't persecuted, but the Russians are sort of rightfully castigated for publicising what they do while the Argentinians and the idea men get away with things and we play football against them and go into their country because they are not honest about... You know this because it is well-documented. It's the very same thing in music. If a band gets treated like stars they act like stars. The fact that nobody turns up to their gigs doesn't seem to really matter. But it works, it works on the public.

[Adopts peculiar voice] I'm changing into R Totale XVII. I have two theories. The first - the northern white crap theory, how can you listen to idiots like him, let's just get on. My second theory is underground medicine, here is the fool who's just been talking, singing about it. [snatch of Underground Medecin live]

MES: Good evening.

Stuart Maconie: First off Mark, it's fair to say that you, one of the great survivors of modern music, You went through punk, you survived punk, and you've never really been a victim of fashion, have you?

MES: Not really no, I just create them.

SM: Has there ever been a time when The Fall have gone out of fashion?

MES: Yeah, it's like a graph, it just goes up and down.

Andrew Collins: You don't think that you're just oblivious to things that are going on outside?

MES: Well, sometimes it's important to be like that.

AC: So 'blinkered' would be a good word to describe your outlook.

MES: No, I mean if you try and go along with everything... it's like when you compose or write, you know, you don't get anything done.

SM: Have you ever been very worried about being hip or fashionable?

MES: I don't know. Look at somebody like Dean Martin, he's had about 55 LPs. In the rock part of it, it's unusual if you have more than 5 LPs. Everybody makes a big fuss.

AC: It feels as if you've had about 55 LPs as well.

MES: Yeah well, it's getting on for it. But 15's a bit of a difference.

AC: You don't think it's time you packed it in and got a proper job?

MES: I do a proper job. A proper job would be easy for me as I work about 18 hours a day.

SM: You're well-known in rock circles as being one of the great interviewees. Are you happy with that?

MES: Don't know really. Never bothered me.

SM: Someone like Morrissey for instance has gone out of his way to say quotable things. Have you ever thought like that?

MES: No, I do me research on the journalists more than I do on what I say.

AC: You are hungry for publicity though.

MES: A lot of people have said it's a pity his records aren't as good as his interviews, you know.

AC: That's a fair comment. What do you say to that?

MES: [Laughs.] Yeah.

AC: You're not very fond of journalists asking you what your lyrics mean. Is that because there's not much to actually report?

MES: The only thing I think is when they take it within their own hands to interpret the lyrics. I think that's a bit embarrassing.

AC: Do you find yourself saying things just to entertain journalists and the readers of the music press that don't actually mean anything, just purely for...

MES: Yes I do, I'll try and gen 'em along. I think journalists have a hard job, he said creepily, because they're dealing with a lot of people one, who have got nothing to say and are obsessed with keeping their image going.

AC: What about your image, since you've mentioned the dreaded 'I' word. A lot's been made of you having an anti-image. Is that just a nice way of saying you look rubbish?

MES: I don't think I've got an anti-image at all. There's an image, there's nothing you can do about it.

AC: You don't contrive it?

MES: I try and change it.

AC: In what ways?

MES: You don't try and wear the same thing you've been wearing for years, but I always come round to wearing the same thing, you know...

AC: A jumper...

MES: Yeah.

AC: You've been going for all these years. How does it feel as a band to have only ever influenced two bands - I, Ludicrous and the Sultans of Ping?

MES: Ha ha! Only two, you mean 20 more like.

AC: People always read profound things into your lyrics and continue to do so even with the new record. How much of it percentage-wise is meaningless twaddle?

MES: None of it.

AC: None of it is just off the top of your head? Just stream of consciousness.

MES: A lot of it's off the top of me head, but in fact sometimes you get more meaningful things doing it like that.

SM: Do you think The Fall have got better as they've gone on?

MES: Well, obviously, yeah. Or I wouldn't have carried on.

MES: No, not really, it goes up and down, it's like a graph. We've been out of fashion for a year now, and we come back in.

MR: Even though you say you were out of fashion, you were in the Christmas issue mouthing off with Peter Hooton from the Farm, you're always in there. Is it because you're good copy?

MES: Yeah, well I have to be wary of that. I'm getting a bit fed up with that. I messed about with the band a lot and I've stripped the band down and got really good now, and it would be good now and then just to be asked about the music, you know. That's an old bloody cliche that.

MR: I was reading an interview and the reporter was surprised to find that he didn't come out with a string of quotes because you didn't seem to be wanting to play that game, particularly.

MES: You get tired of doing their work for them really. I mean if they're good interviewers, they'll get stuff out of you anyway.

MR: How much do you think John Peel's helped over the years? Talking about people who've supported you, he's given you blanket support for a long time, hasn't he?

MES: Yeah it's a good thing and a bad thing, you know.

MR: In what way is it bad?

MES: It's not bad really, it's just er... the good thing about it is that he plays us no matter what, come rain or shine, he's not a fair weather friend.

MR: What's bad about it, that you might get pigeon-holed. That hasn't happened because you've had hit singles as well.

MES: That's correct, yeah. There's nothing bad about it actually at all.

MR: You're just having a whinge aren't you? You say you've got the band tight now, constantly changing line-ups is one thing always mentioned about The Fall. Martin - I can never pronounce his name - Bramah, he was in again and out again quite quickly. Why is it constantly changing, do you get bored, do they get bored? Are you a pain to work with, impossible to get on with for any length of time?

MES: No, it's just that I have ideas on the way the sound should go. I mean, Martin was doing me a big favour, he was standing in for Brix really. It was always agreed that it was a stopgap measure.

MR: Some others left, Marcia left.

MES: Yeah, yeah, I just wanted to get the band down to four people.

MR: Are you happy with it smaller?

MES: I wanted it a bit smaller, you see a lot of groups on telly,and they just go from five to seven and they've got orchestras behind them, and trumpet players. I just wanted it to go the other way because I still do think that the rhythm section hasn't been recognised for what it is. I think it's superb. And no matter what you do, in the mix, it gets clouded over by keyboards and three guitars.

MR: There was a flirtation with - when Simon Rogers was in the band - with samplers and all kinds of things going off.

MES: We still use all that stuff but I want to get the core of it out. I think that's what we've done on the LP.

MR: Do you like to be the boss? How much does The Fall work as a democratic thing and how much is it your vision? Obviously lyrically it's yours, but musically are you calling the shots?

MES: All I can say is yeah, I do and I don't. I can't write music.

MR: Do you play anything?

MES: I play everything but I can't play anything.

MR: So you'll have a dabble.

MES: I've got a layman's ear. If it sounds rubbish to me, it's rubbish. I don't know if it's in tune or not, but if it sounds bad I'll scrub it.

MR: Do you think it's the strongest it's been for some time now then, the most direct?

MES: I hope so yeah.

MR: I was reading another thing about you which said The Fall were quintessentially an English rock band. Do you agree with that? There was all this comparison with the Kinks and Ray Davies, which I could never quite see myself, I could never see what that meant.

MES: I think it's lazy journalism. It's just 'cause we did a cover version of a Kinks song three years ago. I think he's very good actually.

MR: I think Ray Davies is [but] he hasn't done anything very good for a long time has he, really?

MES: Correct.

MR: He did have a golden era undoubtedly. Do you think people often miss the humour aspect of The Fall, do you think you come over as terribly po-faced and serious?

MES: I don't stop and think about it, Mark.

MR: Do you deliberately sit down to write things that are funny, or humourous?

MES: I think a lot of stuff is very funny of ours, I always have.

MR: Have people missed that?, do you tend to get people who don't want to discuss that aspect of The Fall?

MES: It's not worth analysing is it. If they're don't find it funny, they're going to find it good as a piece of music, that's my attitude.

MR: What are the targets that you were feeling about when you started to sit down to write this LP. The television comes in for a bit of hammer. What do you call it, the tragic lantern. Are you pretty disillusioned with the state of British television at the moment?

MES: What it is, Mark, when I try and write a song, I try and look at it objectively, like from another person's point of view. So the telly comes in for a bit of slashing because I imagine, say you were on shiftwork, and you had to watch daytime TV it's quite depressing. I've done it myself.

MR: You don't fancy setting up Cog Sinister TV, and do a few programmes of your own, the Mark E. Smith quiz show?

MES: It doesn't appeal to me, TV. I don't envy anybody who works in TV. Why, do you fancy working in TV?

MR: Not really, I just saw you as a game show host, you've worn some sparkly shirts in your time.

MES: Yeah, but when you actually go and do TV, it's very uncomfortable. It's like a 9.30 start and there's nothing to drink and you're laying in make-up and people ask you questions and they don't listen to your answers.

MR: I sometimes think it's shame it's not TV, two good-looking chaps like us, it would be a good TV show.

MES: Of course it would. I think, I'm a big fan of the old American TV, when they did it live. I Love Lucy, Twilight Zone and stuff like that. It's almost over technicalised now. Everywhere you go it's this big thing about British TV and how great the technique is. British films are like that as well, like Chariots of Fire. Too much technique and there's no feelings in it.

MR: Have there been opportunities for your band to play live on the telly?

MES: We turn a lot down, to be honest.

MR: For playing live?

MES: Yeah, we've been offered it now and again, done it and sometimes we haven't. Went on MTV last week.

MR: Was that good?

MES: It was all right yeah. They're trying to do it very basic.

MR: There's two different sides to the LP, it's broken under two headings - Earth's Impossible Day and Notebooks out Plagiarists! Can we take this at face value, are you fed up with people nicking your ideas?

MES: No, I've always wanted to call an LP that, but I couldn't call this one that.

MR: What's the difference between the two sides that they need two headings?

MES: I've always done that on the LPs. The first side is sort of in the now and the second side is more objective. Most of our LPs are, the first side is usually topical, instant, and the second side is always pretty objective.

MR: Idiot Joy Showland, the first track we played, is that in some way interpreted as your reaction to the hype that's gone on in Manchester over the last 18 months or so?

MES: It is a bit of that but a lot of it is just Britain in general.

MR: Musically or showbusiness, or TV...

MES: The whole place.

MR: How did you feel about all that Manchester stuff going on?

MES: I thought it was okay.

MR: Were people coming to you for quotes to comment on Happy Mondays and stuff?

MES: Which is what the song was a result of. But it's more a general thing. People have obviously keyholed it as slagging off Manchester groups which... I mean I was really happy when the Manchester scene took off, it was great.

MR: Did you feel part of it or responsible for it in any way?

MES: Not really, people say I'm going round complaining about it but then people pick up on anything I say. Course, there's load of Fall influences in it, but there's loads of Fall influences in all sorts of stuff, American, European groups. But what's influence you know, you can't really copyright a bassline. I tried to sue Soho last week for their new single because its tune is Slang King, you know, and Hippy Chick before it was Hip Priest, you know.

MR: Are you getting anywhere with that?

MES: No, you can't, you can't do it. You've got to get musicologists and all that.

MR: Vanilla Ice was in trouble over that thing.

MES: That was glaringly obvious that one.

MR: Maybe it's like what you said before, you couldn't hear the bass line on your records, because there's too many guitars, so nobody knows. Did you have to deliberately make some space not to get swept along there. Did people ask The Fall to play G-Mex, because every group who's going in Manchester plays G-Mex.

MES: We played it for the festival...

MR: Festival of the Tenth Summer. But you could have done your own gig if you'd wanted to. The Fall could definitely have filled G-Mex last year.

MES: Correct, but we've got a definite policy about live concerts last year. We do play a lot so we don't want to flog it to death.

MR: You're not doing any this year, are you?

MES: We probably will, or we'll run out of money about autumn. I try and keep it pretty low-key now. MR: Are you planning anything else like the collaborations with Michael Clark?

MES: I've got something up my sleeve, not with Clark.

MR: With who?

MES: I won't say at the moment.

MR: What about the dance influence, do you ever worry that by incorporating remixes that you're kind of alienating what people see as the essence of The Fall?

MES: No, I thought it was interesting. I thought it was a pity we didn't carry on with it.

MR: Do you find people have a Luddite attitude to The Fall, they expect you to be raw and if you try and do anything else at all they get disenfranchised?

MES: They always have you know, they have since 82. Those people, I can leave 'em, can take 'em or leave 'em. Once you start thinking about that, that's when you get stale. There's always people who want you to bring out the same LP every year.

MR: Did you mind us nicking Hit the North as the title of this programme?

MES: No, not at all, you asked me permission, I remember.

MR: Did you like Frank Sidebottom's version of that?

MES: Never heard it, no. He didn't send me one, he hasn't got the manners.

MR: I'll get you one. We're going to play a song now called Edinburgh Man. Someone told me you bought a bijou holiday-home time-share apartment in Edinburgh.

MES: Ha ha, I was in a bedsit for nine months.

MR: What were you doing up there then, writing?

MES: I just was fed up with Manchester, so I went there.

MR: Did you like Edinburgh?

MES: It's smashing, yeah.

MR: So can this be taken at face value, is this an affectionate tribute?

MES: Half and half. Nothing can be taken at face value.

Mark Radcliffe: Well, their excuse was that it's new management and he didn't know who you were, you see. Perhaps your narcissism thinks everyone knows who you are. Unfortunately not true.

JP: Yes I know, wounding. Wounding indeed. Anyway, after they'd been on stage, you interviewed them.

MR: Yes, as I recall this is a real in-depth thriller, this.

...

MR: Right, Craig and Steve just off stage. Hello.

C&S: Hello [in Frank Sidebottomese].

MR: Hello! [likewise]. So how was it for you? What was it like out there?

CS: I'll just repeat a quote from Steve, I'm sorry but it's quite apt. It sounded like the Beatles at Shea Stadium playing with one Vox amp. We were very separated but I think we played well.

MR: How did it compare with Cities in the Park, you're becoming a real festival attraction, Steve, aren't you?

SH: That was like a warm-up for this, we were booked very short notice for that. We've know we've been doing this for a while so it was better than that.

MR: And you played the Ritz in midweek in Manchester, that was a good gig. Does it make any difference if you're playing to 30,000 people, do you get extra stagefright or, being old pros now, does it not bother you?

SH: I think just recently I've been worrying. For big venues, Eaton Park, I couldn't relax all day. I think it was just the fear of festivals because I think they're really badly organised. There's too many chiefs and not enough Indians around, and you meet too many people you know.

MR: Oh I'm sorry, I'll stay out of the way next time.

SH: No, I really like a bit of solitude before a gig.

MR: Is it a bit strange though, because The Fall was a group born out of small, sweaty rooms, to play to football stadiums full of people. Is it a bit weird Steve?

SH: Yeah, it is obviously. Even the equipment we've got, and some of the songs, are not really suitable for a place this size.

MR: How much time have you spent here? Do you come down and just do your bit?

CS: We do, yeah, we came straight down.

MR: So you don't feel any compulsion to hang out and light a bonfire out of moldy chip papers like everybody else here seems to do?

SH: If we had the chance, but the last time we was here, we was just rushed out straight away. I wouldn't mind staying for a bit, but the coach driver wants to get home early, because he brought his kids with him and he had to go to bed, he had school in the morning, and that's very Fall. That's just the way it is. We say, Okay let's do that.

JP: Why are you talking in that... sorry it's me live again, it must be very confusing.

MR: What an in-depth interview that was, eh?

JP: Well, it was in-depth as I would've been, probably rather deeper. Talking to Steve Hanley and Craig Scanlon of The Fall. Why the funny voice at the beginning?

MR: Craig thinks I sound like Frank Sidebottom anyway, and so whenever I say 'Hello', they always go 'Aww! Hello!' like Frank Sidebottom, who was on on Friday in the comedy tent. [They talk about comedy for a while.]

JP: Anyway, my love for The Fall remains undiminished, despite being rebuffed. As you said, narcissism. Exactly. This is the new single. As I say, it's not altogether new, but it's been remade and remodelled. [Plays So What About it? which wasn't the new single in the end]. You heard it first et cetera, hot new single from The Fall...

MES: I'm fine Mark, how are you?

MG: I'm very good, it's nice to be in Manchester. I've quite enjoyed it.

MES: How long have been up?

MG: A whole three days in Manchester. As they say in Glasgow, you've been the talk of the steamy for your anti-convention activities. Why did you do this then?

MES: Well, it was half and half, it was half coincidence really. We booked the venue before we went to Europe. Actually, when we booked the Ritz, we didn't know the convention was on this week. But I've always... I've been boycotting the New York New Music Seminar for about 10 years.

MG: Yes, I read that, they've been trying to get you to go there, haven't they. Is this because you don't like the notion of talking about music?

MES: True, that's part of it, but it seems to cats sat around discussing how to...

MG: How to expand their credit card accounts.

MES: Steal money out of artists. That's what a lot of the New York seminars are like. It's like guys sat down there telling how to get a black act and how to rip 'em off.

MG: Don't you think though that if you got involved there would be some hope for people at the other end. the people who perhaps you would inspire if they could actually see you there and talk to you?

MES: No, well I can't do that, I can't sit down and talk about my music. Never bothered about it.

MG: The gig you did last night with I, Ludicrous which was - I saw quite an interesting piece in NME last week about that - but that's not the only Manchester gig you're doing, you're doing another one.

MES: We're doing one for Boddington's, October 3rd.

MG: This is part of the Manchester Festival.

MES: That's right.

MG: So there are some festival things you'll get involved with then?

MES: I don't have a choice.

MG: No choice, or is it because it's beer?

MES: They've gave me enough.

MG: Over the years.

MES: Pay them back.

MG: You've probably helped their profits over the years. So what's going to come up in the next few weeks?

MES: Just doing London and that's it really. And Greece. But I don't plan ahead, never have Mark.

MG: Have you heard any good records lately?

MES: Yeah, I've heard a lot of good records.

MG: Like what?

MES: I, Ludicrous.

MG: I thought you might say that.

MES: Even that Suede stuff's quite good. Surprisingly.

MG: Why surprisingly?

MES: Usually these things are no good are they, these new hopes.

MG: You don't like the ones that appear to be hyped-up?

MES: Usually 'biz' aren't they. But Suede are good.

MG: I think they've got great songs. And in fact, they'll be live from the university tonight in a few minutes time.

MES: I'm not going. What, are they playing now?

MG: Why don't you go?

MES: Well I'm stuck in the Ritz for like 12 hours yesterday.

MG: I'll get you in.

MES: No, no, I can get in all right.

MG: I know, I'm joking. It's been very nice to see you again.

MES: Nice to see you Mark.


>>>TBLY six is sold out, but you can read the rest of the issue at: TBLY 6: Radio Interviews pt. 2.